Moral Disengagement with Dr. Albert Bandura

We have a special guest. We have the Albert Bandura, who’s going to be 94. He has a lifetime of unbelievable achievements. I’m looking forward to this.

Watch the episode here:

Listen to the podcast here

Moral Disengagement with Dr. Albert Bandura

I am here with Dr. Albert Bandura who is the David Starr Jordan Professor Emeritus of Social Science and Psychology at Stanford University. He is one of the most frequently cited psychologists of all time along with BF Skinner and Sigmund Freud. You are one of the legends. I’m excited to have you on the show. Welcome, Dr. Bandura.

I’m happy to join you.

I have looked forward to this. I’m very interested in your work. You’re the author of Moral Disengagement: How People Do Harm and Live With Themselves. You’re also known for doing the Bobo Doll Experiment.

I’m afraid that’s going to be my legacy.

You’ve done amazing things.

I can put that in a larger context.

The last time we talked, we got into it later about how you ended up at Stanford and had an interest in psychology because you came from a different background. I want to share that with people. Can you give a little of your background?

The question you’re asking is how a farm boy from a little town in Northern Alberta ends up at Stanford. That’s a huge arch. Particularly, if I briefly describe my background. My parents migrated from Europe. My father was from Poland and my mother from Ukraine. They ended up in Halifax without any resources and no education. My father laid the track on the Trans Canada Railroad and when he got enough money, he purchased the homestead which consists of a lot of trees and rock. He had to turn that into the farmland. These folks were the pioneers of the Canadian nation. There were no homes. There were no churches and no schools. They had to build all these by themselves. In terms of education, we had limited resources. We had one schoolhouse, which included 1st grade through high school and we had three high school teachers teaching the entire curriculum. I had to take a lot of courses by correspondence. For example, the French course each Friday morning. I’ll turn on the radio and we sang French songs.

It was a rural community. When I was in high school, my mother sat me down and said, “Albert, you have to decide what you want to do with your life.” I said, “I have a hockey game in half-an-hour.” This wasn’t funny to me. She said, “You can stay here and you can till the soil. You can play pool and you can drink yourself to oblivion in the beer parlor or you might try and get an education.” Given her neutral alternatives, I thought education. The problem was I had no money to go to college. During the high school break, they said, “You better go to Edmonton and experience the culture.” I worked in the sash and door company there and I saved money. One day, I came home and I said, “I’ve found this fantastic job.” This is my last year of college. “It’s in the Yukon and they pay well. I have room and board,” and fortunately, they didn’t know where the Yukon was.

The Alcan Highway was built on muskeg and it keeps sinking and they have to keep putting gravel on it to maintain the roadbed. About every 80 miles, they have a base camp in which they’re responsible for maintaining the road. I sold the white horse and then got on a bus to the camp. When I was there, there was an ambulance and they were loading this person on. I introduced myself and asked whether he had been injured and they said, “This is our cook. He drank all the lemon extract for the booze and now we have to go and get his son.” They are a motley crew. Booze was their chief nutrient and I know it because we’re ordering a lot of sugar. They’re doing their own. The more the mash got alcoholic, the sooner they got up. They rushed out one day. This is D-day. They came back in probably the most profound collected depression in the Yukon. The grizzly bears drank all their alcoholic mash. We had drunk grizzly bears in our area and they were trying to break into our food supply, but they were too drunk so they would fall over. I don’t think bears got training in how to get up when they’re drunk.

That would be the most viral video ever now, wouldn’t it?

I wish I had a video of that because the dogs became brave. They could grab them and the drunk bears were trying to turn around and they would fall over and the dog couldn’t figure out, “What animal is this?”

It sounds like you have quite an interesting background that made you little open to discovering new ideas.

It broadened my perspective on life. What I was getting is probably the best example of the second pathology of everyday life.

Do you think that’s what drew you into psychology? Was there any other field of study that you’ve considered? What led to that?

I went to the University of British Columbia in Vancouver. I was picking that primarily for a more benign climate. I was getting a ride with a group of engineers and premeds. These folks took courses at an early time. I didn’t know there were early starters. I was sitting in the library and a student left a course catalog on the table there and I was flipping through it for a filler. As I was flipping through, this thing psychology looks perfect filler. I took it and found my profession.

You’re the greatest psychologist of all time now.

By fortuity. In psychology, we avoid fortuitous determinants because they mess up the prediction model. I’m taking fortuity seriously because it plays an important role in our life paths. For example, I’m at Iowa as a graduate student. My friend was late getting to the golf course. They set us up for a later time and there were two women ahead of us. They were showing up and we were speaking up and I met my wife-to-be in the sand trap. Had my friend come in on time, my family life would be entirely different. That had an earlier link at the University of British Columbia. We had to take two phys-ed courses. I got PE thinking that we would be communing with the muses. Instead, they forced us to run on the track to see how out of shape we were. After I got three-quarters of the way through, I decided this could induce a heart attack. I switched to archery. There’s less movement there. The second run was an indoor PE and I thought we’d be dancing to music. This guy forced us to climb these ropes to dizzy heights and I made a quick descent and decided we’ll go for the banner. What is a farm boy doing on a golf cart?

This farm boy certainly did some amazing things in every place. It’s amazing to see what work you’ve done and you followed people like Freud. A lot of people probably will be curious what you think of his work and how what you did tie into anything he was working on or how it influenced you.

There was a fundamental change in the field of psychotherapy. Clinical psychology was pretty much dominated by Freudian era. It was clear in the late ‘50s that approach lacked predictive value or therapeutic value. In order to go through psychoanalysis, you had to be rich and you had to have a lot of free time because they required multiple sessions. Even if it were effective, it would have virtually no social utility because only people with money could afford it. It was a notch at that time that within a ten-year period, we transformed the field of psychotherapy in favor of Cognitive Behavior Therapy in which it consisted of trying to alter people’s faulty thinking and also faulty behavior.

In addition to that, we focused on determining what is the functional value of this behavior rather than signing people to categories such as you’re neurotic, you’re this and that, which often stigmatizes the people. We got away from talking therapy to altering faulty thinking but correcting them by guided mastery treatment that enabled people to live a better life. We were changing the content, the locus and the agents of change. In terms of content, we got away from talking therapies designed to get people to believe that their behavior is governed by unconscious forces and complexes and then you had the defense mechanisms pursuing to head these motivators from you. In terms of the locus, a lot of the treatment was trying to alter behavioral styles or the styles of behavior, which meant that this required treatment in the context rather than just in an office.

With agents, this treatment put a lot of emphasis on enabling the large scale of people to participate in the treatment. For example, you could do treatments let’s say with a problem child in school. You’ll see at that time, they would be in sandboxes. If you spend several years with a teacher and teach them how to handle problem behavior, you’re going to have a different impact than if you’re treating one kid for ten hours. Within several years, we turned a lot of treatment. We developed a whole new set of journals. We developed conventions. I don’t know whether there’s an area in psychology in which a transformative change was made that fast. This treatment was misread by the press and others as a treatment of social control.

We had Clockwork Orange who was depicted as shocking a person. Where the iron had one, in which he was outwitting these controllers and was treating you like a robot. We had the Unabomber who sent a bomb to a professor in Michigan who was teaching behavior therapy. We had LaRouche. He was this guy who ran for President all the time and he called behavior therapists as Rockefeller Nazis. He had a tribunal. He went to Stony Brook in assuring with the classes. In the midst of this, I began my presidency for the American Psychological Association.

I decided we can’t be passive about this. We have to address this because as a discipline we have a responsibility to produce good science, but we also should have the responsibility of what are the facts of that science. I put together an interdisciplinary committee to examine how these methods were being used, not only individually, but also institutionally in hospitals and in schools. We produced this fantastic code which was actually published as a book. What was happening is this mode of therapy you could see the benefits of it. Before long, we had changed the image from social control to a treatment that was really more with what self-empowerment to be able to lead a better life.

Self-empowerment is getting even more attention with all people focusing on being meditative and all that. What do you think of your work and how it ties into the focus they’re starting to go with mindfulness?

What happened are nine fellows hooked on Cognitive Behavior Therapy. It’s not competitive. You have to be careful because mindfulness is easy. You sit in your office or you train people to distract themselves. That could be helpful. This whole treatment was a treatment of enablement. I decided in testing this theory. I would begin with snake phobia thinking that it would be a circumscribed disorder. It turned out deeply affecting people’s lives. For example, you have a member of a family who couldn’t go to picnics or outdoor activities. Then you have the occupation of a fireman. You couldn’t go to the electrical poles for fear that snakes are lurking in the grass. There’s one fellow who in the true spirit of the West, shot himself in the leg trying to kill a harmless gopher snake. For some who love golf, it was expensive because they often sliced. They don’t want to go in that grass looking for them. They came in. I was testing a guided master treatment that people fall back, protect themselves or they shun reality so they can never change if they don’t re-expose them to reality in a second. They have to confront the problem and you need to help them to master it.

A lot of people study things because they have issues or they’re interested in it. Did you have any phobias? Did you have anything that you were working on that this helped you? Did you find this interesting? What led to this?

I don’t have phobias. They come in and I say, “We’re going to the next room and there’s a caged snake.” The first reaction is, “This guy’s off of his medication. I’m not going close to that room.” I said, “Of course, because if you could, you wouldn’t be here. I wouldn’t ask you to do anything that you couldn’t do with a little effort.” They said, “Okay, but I’m not getting close to that door.” I said, “Of course, not. You can watch the one-way mirror. What do you fear?” They said, “This thing can jump on you and it could choke you.” I say to the therapist, “John, would you hang the snake around your neck?” This experience is they could not get to the door.

There are a number of graduated steps. I said, “Do you think you’d go about three inches further?” They said, “Yeah.” I said, “How about six inches?” They said, “No.” The next graduated marking is a joint performance with your therapist. I said, “Would you do it with me?” They said, “If you’re there.” Before long, I have him at the cage and then they see me there handling the snake. I said, “Do you think you can touch it?” They said, “No.” I said, “I’ll give you a safe leather glove and I’ll hold it by the head and tail so it can’t do anything. You can put it over in my hand.” The first thing they say is, “It’s not slimy.” I used a corn snake. They said, “It’s beautiful.” Before long, I hold them by the head and they work on the tail. In four hours, I cured everyone.

It’s about perception. Did you study perception, how we look at things? How does one person’s perception of the snake differ from somebody else’s? What causes this in people?

I was more concerned with answering that perception by this guided mastery treatment.

Did you find the factors that were associated with that, what would cause someone to be like that?

First of all they said, “Aren’t you going to analyze me?” I said, “I’ll do that after we cure you.” They had examples in which they go with their father to practice hitting the ball. They’re crossing an area and the father spots the snake and in this tremendous violent act pounds the snake to death. The other was often in films. They would drag out the snakes coming to the person. The music would be there and they drag it out as much as possible. They had nightmares. There are a lot of things like that.

Do you think we make things up to be bigger and worse in our minds?

Yeah. I remember being invited to Langley Porter Clinic in San Francisco, which was primarily psychoanalytic at the time. They decided, “There’s this guy who was boasting that he can cure snakes in a few hours.” This is probably the most hostile introduction you can give to a guest you invited. After they got through with the hostile introduction, I said, “Thank you for the generous introduction.”

What you’ve done is such an inspiration. I know that for many years you’ve been working on the moral disengagement stuff that you wrote about in your book. You are interested in what’s happening with the planet and how we’re having global issues. We have a problem with the older generations that we need to look at the younger generations.

I’m addressing the most urgent problems facing humankind in this millennium. If you look at climate change, we are polluting the atmosphere with carbon and methane gases that are heating our planet. Each year, we have more pumped into the atmosphere. Each year, we’re getting new records of the heat of the planet. The UN had twenty annual summits to get the countries to reduce their emissions. Many years of summits that went nowhere. They said, “We’re going to do it when we meet in Paris.” They met at Paris and all they got were promises that they will reduce emissions by a certain percentage, but these were immeasurable and unenforceable.

After Paris, they had the one in Poland. First of all, the promises they made would not be sufficient to reduce global warming. When they met later in Poland, they weren’t even meeting their promises, which were insufficient to begin with. The countries that are heavily dependent on a coal economy decided that they’re going to get rid of these pledges altogether. In the meantime, the planet’s getting hotter. The other thing that’s looming is a horrible concern that as the planet gets hotter, it begins to see the macro defects. For example, the carbon and methane that had been stored there for millenniums. Once you do that, then you get on a positive feedback loop. The hotter it is, the more of these heat-trapping gases are released. The more release, the hotter and this is not a human can hold.

With other colleagues, we’ve been running long-running serial dramas in which we’re trying to change people’s behavior that affects the environment. There are three areas that we have to address. The first is we’ve got to get off fossil fuels and depend on renewables. We’re doing a little better but we have to have the support from the governments to give up coal. The second is soaring population growth. The population was I think about three billion in 1957 and then this stuff is exponential. We’re heading to nine billion to ten billion. We’ve already surpassed the planet’s carrying capacity. We need another planet. We have long-running serial dramas. These are not whimsical ones. These are dramas that we model people’s lives. The problems and the impediments they face and we inform, guide and enable them to begin to take the steps to alter their life.

With global warming being in the news and many people not believing that there is a problem and all that. What’s the psychology behind the perception of that? Why do many people believe something versus many people don’t believe it. Is it media? What exactly is making people say there is no global warming versus those saying there is?

In the book, Moral Disengagement, I point out that you don’t need a theory to explain why that behavior does bad things, although most of our research is focused on that. What we are witnessing is a pervasive moral paradox in which good people are doing harmful things but still retaining their self-respect and living in peace with themselves.

To what end? Why?

People want cars and they want refrigeration. The car should be new ones every year. Our economy is less now but it’s built on coal. Our government invests little money on programs to prevent this environmental crisis that we’re going to be facing. We want a good life. The problem is the poorer countries such as India, Africa, and South America want good Western life as well. For example, India says, “We want to increase the standard of living of our people. We have millions of people who don’t have electricity. We don’t make any pledge that we’re going to reduce carbon emissions. In fact, we are going to be increasing carbon emissions.”

What do you think of the work of somebody like Elon Musk that’s doing the electric cars and the different things to try and come up with different means?

If we can develop electric cars that are going to be cheap enough for people to buy them, then that’s an important way of reducing our dependence on gasoline.

What led to your interest in this? You’re obviously a curious guy. What do you think made you curious about all these different aspects of the psychological aspects of modeling and all that work that you’ve done there, and then now this?

My work may look to the observer as certain programs for research. I have it on modeling. I have it on goal setting. I have research on self-efficacy. These are all aspects of my theory of human agency that according to this theory, people have a hand in influencing the events that affect our lives and in shaping their lives in a favorable direction. The features of the agency, the first one is forethought. We select goals to influence our motivation and behavior. We have outcome expectations as to what effects are these behaviors going to involve. The second is you are adopting standards of behavior and you respond either positively or negatively as to how well you adhere to them. This second feature of agency is self-regulation. The third is self-reflection. You reflect on your behavior and then you judge it and make whatever changes need to be made.

The major factor in self-reflection is self-efficacy. You reflect on your capabilities and this influences your behavior. I had this huge program or search and modeling when I was a graduate student that was during the period of behaviorism. That’s the way in which you learn and change as determined by consequences. All our traditional theories were heavily influenced. There are two ways of learning. One is my experience and the second is by modeling. During the behaviorism period, these folks didn’t want to touch modeling at all because they assumed that behavior is shaped by consequences. How can you learn sitting there and looking? You aren’t producing any responses. You aren’t getting any reinforcements for them.

I have to say to them about, “It’s monkey see, monkey do.” I showed, “Modeling is the mother of invention. If you want to produce a Lexus, get a better car that you draw another source of information.” I was demonstrating that there are two ways in which modeling increases innovation. One, if you’re on models that are innovating, you’re a more innovative person than if they aren’t. Two, modeling and creativity are often building on the progress made by others. For example, Jobs did not invent the computer nor did Jobs invent the internet. What you do is put together things that already are made and you do something that’s even better. The other one was you’re modeling the end point, the behavior, but you’re not modeling the cognitive processes. We did research in which the models speak out of what their cognitive processes are.

About forethought and modeling, where does curiosity fall into that mix? Do you need curiosity to spark the motivation in the forethought? Is that the beginning?

The curiosity at the motivational level, but what moves you?

I wonder if you thought curiosity came before or after motivation.

Curiosity would be a source of motivation. To get curious, you better start examining a lot of things.

Many people have interviewed you. People call you that are writing books and want your input that maybe weren’t aware of your work. I find that hard to believe. Does that happen often?

I can prove that easily. They say, “Bandura, make Bobo doll.” At most I said, “I don’t know who this guy is.” I’m having a reporter from the Washington Post coming and he’s writing a book on suicide. There was another reporter who was writing a book. I forgot on what topic. He said, “I discovered you by accident.” She said, “Why don’t people know about your work?” the same of the person’s coming. He said, “I was going around asking people.” He was interviewing them on their theories and treatment of suicide. A couple of them are saying, “You should go and talk to Bandura. He wrote the bible on behavior modification.”

It shows you that people need to read a little bit more.

I was venturing. The earlier one said, “You’re doing this fascinating stuff. You’re addressing major problems. I’m going to make sure you’re going to get known.” Diane, you’re helping. I need more Diane.

I may have to quote you on that. Is there anything that you haven’t shared that people don’t know about you that would be a fascinating thing? You’re 94. Is there any story, any quick thing you want to share that you haven’t shared in any other interview that I can scoop to say, “I got this from Albert Bandura?”

I get a lot of emails from high school students who are taking advanced psychology. I answer them all. I get this one, “Professor Bandura, we’re having a big argument in our class and only you can resolve it. Professor Bandura, are you still living?” I said, “We have email on the other side but not Facebook.”

That has to be quite entertaining to see what people write to you and all that you found.

That’s been amazing. I receive a lot of letters from people who say, “I gave up. I see no future. I have no hope. Then I start reading your stuff in self-efficacy and now I want to tell you what my achievements are.”

That has to be the best feeling in the world. Your life has been one amazing achievement. What does it feel like when you are the most frequently cited psychologist of all time? You’re also the greatest living psychologist. Does that blow your mind?

I treat those as beauty contests. I get a lot of honorary degrees. I think about twenty from different universities. The first one was from my alma mater. I call home and my mother answered the phone and I explained to her, “I have an honorary degree from the university,” and there’s a long pause. She says, “What program are you taking that it took you several years to get it?”

It sounds like your mother had a big impact on your curiosity and your sense of needing to have an education and all that.

That was interesting because in this small town about 90% of the male youngsters would become farmers. The principal of the school called my parents in and she said, “I gave this test called the IQ test. I don’t think Albert should be a farmer. I think he should go to college.” My parents said, “We don’t have any money.” She said, “You will find money, but you have to make the decision that he isn’t going to be a farmer and he should go to college.” That was another impetus. My parents didn’t have any education, but they’ve put a tremendous emphasis on self-development through education.

Are you planning on getting any future degrees, not that you’re almost 94, on future development?

I had to quit a long-distance travel.

We have online education now.

You have to go there for the ceremonies. I did get an email from a university in France in which they want to give me an honorary degree. I thanked them and I said I’ve had to give up foreign travel. They’re saying they’re trying to figure out how to give me a degree in absentia.

Your work deserves much recognition and it was nice of you to be on the show and to share these stories. I could see why you’ve earned many honorary doctorates. Your name is legendary. Thank you so much for doing the show. If somebody wants to find out more about getting your book, Moral Disengagement or finding out about you in general, where do you like people to go? Do you have a website? Do you want them to go to Amazon? Is there something you want to share?

I have a website, which is fantastic because it includes a listing of papers and articles for each of my fourteen or fifteen areas of research. It’s scheduled that first of all, there’s a description of the area. You have a list of general papers on the phenomena, a list of major articles and then videos or books connected with that particular area. I have one of all the honors. I have a separate one for all of the honorary degrees and I have the photos. Some of these are pretty strange. My mentor in Iowa got an honorary degree from La Sapienza in Rome and he sent me a photograph. He said, “Al, you’re going to have a bid.” I even have a chart on the phobia therapy. I have long papers on global applications. I’m revising another one, which I had fun doing it. Lynne Cherry had taken videos of these kids who made fantastic environmental changes. These are nine-year-olds and ten-year-olds.

I look at them and intuitively they were using most of the principles from Social Cognitive Theory. These are dramatic. You have a nine-year-old German kid who went on the internet and saw the story on the woman in Africa who planted millions of trees. He decided he’s going to start a reforestation program in which he got about 800,000 trees planted in Germany. He posts this program on the internet and millions of them were being planted elsewhere. There are three nine-year-olds. They saw some of these films that Lynne has. They were working on assumed similarity in modeling. These kids are no different from us. If they can do it, why can’t we do it?

In Lexington, the first thing they do is go to the town council to try to get them to remove an ordinance that says, “You can’t put the panels on public buildings.” They go there and the council voted unanimously to remove it. The city goes on to correct the panels on all of their public buildings. They say, “If we can do that, why shouldn’t we have panels in our school?” In terms of efficacy building, she said, “We’re no longer in the girlies. We have power.” They heard that they were going to cut down some forest trees right back at their homes where they play off. They got a petition and stopped the city from doing that. They said, “This is just the beginning.” There’s another one in which they got one near LA where they got plastic bags banned. There’s another one where their area, all the kids have breathing problems and some even requiring medication. She said, “I wonder why we have the coal fire plant here, we have the water purification plant here and we have the whole garbage dump here. This looks to me like environmental racism.” She mounted a campaign and got sit down and coal-fired plants shut down.

What I want to do in this paper is to start out with the failure of the adults to make any changes. They say we can no longer rely on adults. If we’re going to have a future, we’re going to have to create it. Not now is not the future, the future is right now. That’s when they began to do these things. From there, I go on to the summary of the youth gun movement. These kids said, “We’ve had enough.” They had Florida adopt a law. They set up the March For Our Lives in Washington. They had 500,000 and about one million on the internet. They then set up their caravan where they were crisscrossing the country, signing up youngsters to vote. I use that as an example of youths. What I then turn to is argue for the development of a youth environmental movement. Imagine if you could mobilize all the youth of our nation and the youth around the world, what fantastic power you have where the adults are a complete failure.

Your mind is impressive of the things you continue to work on. The scope of the things you take on is impressive. This is going to be interesting to so many people. I didn’t get a chance to get the name of the website that you created. Do you know the name of your website?

It’s www.ProfessorAlbertBandura.com. I was asked to review an article on modeling in spirituality. People think I’m an authority on spirituality. I cite the case there. The issue does religiosity affect self-efficacy? God is going to set it out. I cite an example. There was a story, not true. A dam breaks and this small town is being flooded. The guy goes by and says, “Jump on my thing here.” He said, “I want to put my faith in the Lord.” He’s on the window sill. A motorboat comes by and says, “Jump on.” He says, “I put my faith in the Lord.” Finally, he’s on the roof and the helicopter sent down the rope and he says, “Go away.” He wakes up at the pearly gates and he says, “Why didn’t you help me?” God says, “I sent you a boat. I sent you a helicopter. I sent you some help. What more do you want?”

There are a lot of people that don’t see the signs. I imagine that your work has been helpful for many people and that’s got to be a great legacy. It was nice of you to share your story on the show. Thank you so much.

I have one more. This is when I got a National Medal of Science. I got an email from the White House saying that I’ve been elected for the National Medal of Science, but they need my Social Security number. I have a policy. I don’t give my Social Security number on the internet. I concluded this was a fraud. I got another one that’s urgent. They said, “We have to do the security check on you in order for you to get into the White House.” I called my daughter and I said, “Can you call them? They want my bank number.” She called and she says, “Dad, this was real.”

You’re a fun guy to talk to.

If the public has the email, they could see the scope and also the website. It could affect their lives.

I’m sure it will. For our audience, we’ll make sure that you’re able to access everything from the incredible Albert Bandura. Thank you.

Thank you. You’re very kind.

Thank you so much to Albert Bandura. What an amazing time I had talked to him. If you missed any past guest, please go to DrDianeHamiltonRadio.com. I hope you join us for the next episode of Take The Lead Radio.

Important Links:

• Dr. Albert Bandura
• Moral Disengagement: How People Do Harm and Live With Themselves
• American Psychological Association
• Lynne Cherry
• March For Our Lives
• www.ProfessorAlbertBandura.com

About Dr. Albert Bandura

Albert Bandura is the David Starr Jordan Professor Emeritus of Social Science in Psychology at Stanford University. He is one of the most frequently cited psychologists of all time, along with B. F. Skinner, Sigmund Freud, and Jean Piaget. Bandura is widely described as the greatest living psychologist and one of the most influential psychologists of all time. He is known as the originator of social learning theory (renamed the social cognitive theory) and the theoretical construct of self-efficacy. He is the author of Moral Disengagement: How People Do Harm and Live with Themselves.

• Here’s How »

• DrDianeHamilton.com
• Dr. Diane Hamilton Facebook
• Dr. Diane Hamilton Twitter
• Dr. Diane Hamilton LinkedIn
• Dr. Diane Hamilton YouTube
• Dr. Diane Hamilton Instagram